Again, I ask, is water boarding torture?
John you started your show on ABC prior to 9/11 with an ongoing look at the JFK assassination and all the conspiracy theories. The original commission propelled Single Bullet Specter to prominence. The 9/11 commission was Bush allowing the former Clinton administration to save face. Bush could have de-classified Clinton rendition memos or how they botched the search for Bin Laden, but the republicans let Sandy Berger with the assistance of Ben Vineste and Jamie Gorelick skate.
Listen to the audio from Schumer from 2004 at Hot Air. Do the democrats and the anti war left really want to cripple our deterrant capability. Are they so blinded by there concept of moral relativism. Does Holder want the US to be subjected to the whims of the Spanish Court or The ICC in Brussels.
This whole thing is just a distraction from the woeful economic picture.
Does the phrase "hoist by their own petard" start to apply?
God these people make me sick.
No, I mean our people, the administration. The terrorists may be lunatics, but they at least have something they stand for.
Those "on our side" stand for nothing. Platitudes. They wanted power. Now they have it. What would daddy do in a situation like this. Oh, don't even have that to fall back on. Wing it. Make some more jokes about talk radio. Change? As in Change the subject? Hope? Hope the media will move on to something else?
I pray for the administration who's church attendance is merely a PR stunt (they even claim to not know what goes on there) to become inspired by America and to re-focus on protecting her rather than changing her into something we no longer recognize.
Reference Zarqawi and the most visible proponent of soft interrogations.
Through the years, as "the slaughtering sheik" evaded capture in the desert villages of Iraq, the serial killer commanded a complex network of cohorts who prepared his way in his travels, managed the homicides that incited sectarian retribution, and confounded intel professionals from numerous countries. There are no reports of abuse or tortures on potential sources of info in the hunt for Zarqawi. At least, no reports of harsh interrogations.
There is a book which claims that over many months of making friends with someone associated with the network was what brought the break that led to the exact location in time of the slaughtering sheik. The premise of the book is that "soft" works... if one has the time to wait. I don't dispute that there may be linkage to this source and that this link may have been instrumental in pinpointing Zarqawi, but, it is my belief that numerous contributions along with actual tangible evidences provided the opportunity to trace him to the house where he was eliminated. At any rate, it was successful.
What I recall of the hunt for Zarqawi is this: as time went on, he progressively became less cautious in his security and more bold in his self perceived invincibility... a typical behavior found when investigating serial murders. (Remember the video of him in tennis shoes in the desert with some lieutenants trying make an AK47 function?)
Several days before the end of his notoriety, there was the report that nine heads were found in a fruit crate in Baqouba, apparent victims of a ritual live slaughter which, by then, was determined to be a trademark of Zarqawi. I know when I heard this report, I told myself that Zarqawi was near.
To surmise, there is a book that ascribes soft interrogation techniques as the means of reliably garnering information from suspects. The trouble for me is, it is mostly based on this single case where innumerable methods were used to track a murderer who had become brazen and reckless. Over his career in Iraq, how many lives could have been saved if a little tough love had been applied to potential sources of info?
"Torture", for the newly minted 'Democrat Socialist Party' is a gift that keeps on giving. The issue is eagerly embraced by the press and blown up into full-blown media frenzy any time anybody mentions it. No chance of anything of consequence happening to anybody. Too many willing fingers were found in that particular pie.
It's now descended to the level of pure propaganda. Whenever the Democrat hot-air balloon looses altitude, the Dems just drop a little ballast in the sacks marked "torture" and the blow-up donkey soars again.
It works every time - at least, for those who only talk to each other on college campuses and on New York and Hollywood sound stages - but, believe me, the general public is royally sick of it. For them it's more of the same of what they've been hearing for the past eight years: Bush sucks, Cheney sucks, America sucks, Palin sucks, Americans suck, the military sucks; and now: torture sucks; Bush/criminal; Cheney/criminal; America/criminal; global warming; SUV's/criminal; Republicans/criminal -- 'Democrat Socialist Party'/good.
I dare say if the issue were put to a popular vote right now - (alleged) torturers vs. (Dem) accusers – the torturers (as they are currently defined) would win hands down.
The definition of "torture" is being subject to the same same kind of dynamic that Sen. Moynihan observed when he commented that as a society that we were "defining deviancy down". The bar is continually lowered in some kind of linguistic limbo game, where we must contort our understanding of a concept to an ever more difficult position to maintain and support. At some point the game is impossible and the players collapse and the bar is reset much higher.
Again, I ask, is water boarding torture? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding According to these sources, waterboarding is torture. It has been around since the Spanish Inquistion.
Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[4][5][32] politicians, war veterans,[6][7] intelligence officials,[10] military judges,[11] and human rights organizations.[12][13] David Miliband, the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary described it as torture on July 19, 2008, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture."[33] Arguments have been put forward that it might not be torture in all cases, or that it is unclear.[34][35][36][37] The U.S. State Department has recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in other circumstances, for example, in its 2005 Country Report on Tunisia.[38]
The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture: Thirty-fifth Session of November 2006, stated that state parties should rescind any interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.[39]
Thank You JB for backing up my previous points that Cheney did authorize torture.
My question is when BushCo will finally go on trial for war crimes? If US isnt thrust into martial law so these crooks dont have to. I did hear a Senator, cant remember is name, said that if BushCo went to prison then martial law would be imposed in the US. I know it's on YouTube somewhere.
Im not anti-American or Anti-Sementic. These statements only stifle an open debate. My question what are the other parties/POV afraid of? it's like criticizing a movie, it has to be two thumbs up or else the debate is closed. It is another chain in the link hampering one's freedom of speech. Thought police come to mind.
An Aside: There is a controversial play about Israel actions in Gaza and how Israeli parents are going to describe it to their children. Plus some Palestine art was refused to be posted in an art gallery and some other Jewish art criticizing Israel was also refused to be shown since the Canadian Jewish Congress/Jewish Defence Leaque thought it was an anti-semintic. There was quite the debate between the Jewish artist and the JDL representative. The most shocking statement the JDL rep said that the artists "political views" should be checked out. The Jewish artist said that's "McCarthyism." Immediately, he said that wasnt point; however that is the point. We live in an open and free society last time i checked. However, if some views dont suit then dont go to the exhibit. I thought afterwards, will the future bring where we have to put on political affliation on our driver's liscence? Scary times indeed folks.
What is torture?
Torture is reading the verbiage of self-styled conservatives who decry the tightening hold of a power-hungry Federal government over health care, the economy, where our kids can go to school, and every other facet of our increasingly circumscribed lives, but who then turn around and say that it’s okay to allow that same power-hungry Federal government to simulate the drowning of prisoners--at least the really evil ones, anyhow. What, they ask, could possibly go wrong with such a fine idea as government-sanctioned waterboarding? After all, we’re the good guys, the Exceptionalist Americans who are mysteriously immune to the flaws and temptations of the rest of humanity. Just ask anybody, man!
That is indeed torture.
Cave canem
*Saturno Devorando a su Hijo* http://eeweems.com/goya/saturn.html
*Viejos Comiendo Sopas* http://eeweems.com/goya/old_men_eating.html
Sadly, I'm reminded of Goya
Waterboarding dos not involve submerging the head underwater. Again, I ask, if waterboarding is indeed cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, why does the US Army routinely subject thousands of it's own troops to it?
Huh?
I gather that Mr. Batchelor knows his Oscar Wilde backwards and forwards, so he surely remembers the one about how doing something once makes it curiosity, twice perversion.
By the same token, waterboarding a recruit once or twice can be regarded as training, but to inflict simulated drowning on a prisoner day after day after day after day is reasonably held to be torture. (Ditto for sleep deprivation, loud noises, etc.) And Mr. Batchelor did say that KSM was "repeatedly" waterboarded. That word "repeatedly" is important.
What a dreary discussion this has been.
Good source on 'perversion'.
So, is WBing torture?
Note the editor's name: http://tinyurl.com/q7ypto
Why don't you ask one of your other pseudonyms?
Prosit!
14 said it's not... if you don't have time to sweet talk and make nicey poo
1 said "no comment"
3 asked "does it matter?"
and
3 said they didn't know what any of us were talking about--> psuedonymbonics?
Anyway, I've been fairly comfortable with Spencer for, well, since he first showed up
Kenneth, apart from the fact that you're glossing over the application of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to non-U.S. citizens, who don't have the full protection of those legal documents, you're also implicitly comparing the victims of nationalized healthcare (i.e., all of use) to a few select, hardened terrorists who chose to be what they are. Come on .... I'm very strongly against police brutality in this country. I think the Rodney King beating was atrocious. I dislike police in general. I thought the BATF raid on Waco was appalling. But, I don't think Gitmo is like any of those other things that DO get me riled up. Gitmo is a series of legally sanctioned (at the time) actions, by a sovereign power with a very noble and focused purpose: that of tracking down this al-Qaeda scum and preventing another brutal, foul, vicious attack like 9/11. And they were successful! My hats off to them. Bush, Cheney and the whole chain of command right down to the actual guards helping with the waterboarding are AMERICAN HEROES for my money. It may be unpopular to say it, but who cares: Cheney is absolutely spot-on with his assessment of this whole waterboarding question - namely, when you sit in judgment of us, you must also bear in mind what might have happened had we not acted as we did.
Duly noted. Thanks.
How can I be said to have glossed over "the application of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to non-U.S. citizens"? I made no mention whatsoever of these things in my post.
I am troubled by the notion that we can give the Feds permission to torture people--even just the really bad ones--and not expect that they won't someday get around to using those same methods against Americans.
Look at what the RICO Act has turned into and you'll know what I mean. It was meant to give the Feds more power to fight mobsters but has since been used against groups as varied as strip club owners and anti-abortion activists, and has even been a tool in civil suits.
Kenneth:
I was referring to the sentence in which you pointed out that self-styled conservatives object to Federal government intrusion in areas such as healthcare, the economy, and education, but have no problem with torture. I'm answering that I only see a dichotomy here if one answers the question from the point of view that the rights guaranteed in the Constitution apply to aliens as well.
Again, I ask, is water boarding torture?
John you started your show on ABC prior to 9/11 with an ongoing look at the JFK assassination and all the conspiracy theories. The original commission propelled Single Bullet Specter to prominence. The 9/11 commission was Bush allowing the former Clinton administration to save face. Bush could have de-classified Clinton rendition memos or how they botched the search for Bin Laden, but the republicans let Sandy Berger with the assistance of Ben Vineste and Jamie Gorelick skate.
Listen to the audio from Schumer from 2004 at Hot Air. Do the democrats and the anti war left really want to cripple our deterrant capability. Are they so blinded by there concept of moral relativism. Does Holder want the US to be subjected to the whims of the Spanish Court or The ICC in Brussels.
This whole thing is just a distraction from the woeful economic picture.
Does the phrase "hoist by their own petard" start to apply?
God these people make me sick.
No, I mean our people, the administration. The terrorists may be lunatics, but they at least have something they stand for.
Those "on our side" stand for nothing. Platitudes. They wanted power. Now they have it. What would daddy do in a situation like this. Oh, don't even have that to fall back on. Wing it. Make some more jokes about talk radio. Change? As in Change the subject? Hope? Hope the media will move on to something else?
I pray for the administration who's church attendance is merely a PR stunt (they even claim to not know what goes on there) to become inspired by America and to re-focus on protecting her rather than changing her into something we no longer recognize.
Reference Zarqawi and the most visible proponent of soft interrogations.
Through the years, as "the slaughtering sheik" evaded capture in the desert villages of Iraq, the serial killer commanded a complex network of cohorts who prepared his way in his travels, managed the homicides that incited sectarian retribution, and confounded intel professionals from numerous countries. There are no reports of abuse or tortures on potential sources of info in the hunt for Zarqawi. At least, no reports of harsh interrogations.
There is a book which claims that over many months of making friends with someone associated with the network was what brought the break that led to the exact location in time of the slaughtering sheik. The premise of the book is that "soft" works... if one has the time to wait. I don't dispute that there may be linkage to this source and that this link may have been instrumental in pinpointing Zarqawi, but, it is my belief that numerous contributions along with actual tangible evidences provided the opportunity to trace him to the house where he was eliminated. At any rate, it was successful.
What I recall of the hunt for Zarqawi is this: as time went on, he progressively became less cautious in his security and more bold in his self perceived invincibility... a typical behavior found when investigating serial murders. (Remember the video of him in tennis shoes in the desert with some lieutenants trying make an AK47 function?)
Several days before the end of his notoriety, there was the report that nine heads were found in a fruit crate in Baqouba, apparent victims of a ritual live slaughter which, by then, was determined to be a trademark of Zarqawi. I know when I heard this report, I told myself that Zarqawi was near.
To surmise, there is a book that ascribes soft interrogation techniques as the means of reliably garnering information from suspects. The trouble for me is, it is mostly based on this single case where innumerable methods were used to track a murderer who had become brazen and reckless.
Over his career in Iraq, how many lives could have been saved if a little tough love had been applied to potential sources of info?
"Torture", for the newly minted 'Democrat Socialist Party' is a gift that keeps on giving. The issue is eagerly embraced by the press and blown up into full-blown media frenzy any time anybody mentions it. No chance of anything of consequence happening to anybody. Too many willing fingers were found in that particular pie.
It's now descended to the level of pure propaganda. Whenever the Democrat hot-air balloon looses altitude, the Dems just drop a little ballast in the sacks marked "torture" and the blow-up donkey soars again.
It works every time - at least, for those who only talk to each other on college campuses and on New York and Hollywood sound stages - but, believe me, the general public is royally sick of it. For them it's more of the same of what they've been hearing for the past eight years: Bush sucks, Cheney sucks, America sucks, Palin sucks, Americans suck, the military sucks; and now: torture sucks; Bush/criminal; Cheney/criminal; America/criminal; global warming; SUV's/criminal; Republicans/criminal -- 'Democrat Socialist Party'/good.
I dare say if the issue were put to a popular vote right now - (alleged) torturers vs. (Dem) accusers – the torturers (as they are currently defined) would win hands down.
The definition of "torture" is being subject to the same same kind of dynamic that Sen. Moynihan observed when he commented that as a society that we were "defining deviancy down". The bar is continually lowered in some kind of linguistic limbo game, where we must contort our understanding of a concept to an ever more difficult position to maintain and support. At some point the game is impossible and the players collapse and the bar is reset much higher.
Again, I ask, is water boarding torture?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
According to these sources, waterboarding is torture. It has been around since the Spanish Inquistion.
Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[4][5][32] politicians, war veterans,[6][7] intelligence officials,[10] military judges,[11] and human rights organizations.[12][13] David Miliband, the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary described it as torture on July 19, 2008, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture."[33] Arguments have been put forward that it might not be torture in all cases, or that it is unclear.[34][35][36][37] The U.S. State Department has recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in other circumstances, for example, in its 2005 Country Report on Tunisia.[38]
The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture: Thirty-fifth Session of November 2006, stated that state parties should rescind any interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.[39]
Thank You JB for backing up my previous points that Cheney did authorize torture.
My question is when BushCo will finally go on trial for war crimes? If US isnt thrust into martial law so these crooks dont have to. I did hear a Senator, cant remember is name, said that if BushCo went to prison then martial law would be imposed in the US. I know it's on YouTube somewhere.
Im not anti-American or Anti-Sementic. These statements only stifle an open debate. My question what are the other parties/POV afraid of? it's like criticizing a movie, it has to be two thumbs up or else the debate is closed. It is another chain in the link hampering one's freedom of speech. Thought police come to mind.
An Aside: There is a controversial play about Israel actions in Gaza and how Israeli parents are going to describe it to their children. Plus some Palestine art was refused to be posted in an art gallery and some other Jewish art criticizing Israel was also refused to be shown since the Canadian Jewish Congress/Jewish Defence Leaque thought it was an anti-semintic. There was quite the debate between the Jewish artist and the JDL representative. The most shocking statement the JDL rep said that the artists "political views" should be checked out. The Jewish artist said that's "McCarthyism." Immediately, he said that wasnt point; however that is the point. We live in an open and free society last time i checked. However, if some views dont suit then dont go to the exhibit. I thought afterwards, will the future bring where we have to put on political affliation on our driver's liscence? Scary times indeed folks.
What is torture?
Torture is reading the verbiage of self-styled conservatives who decry the tightening hold of a power-hungry Federal government over health care, the economy, where our kids can go to school, and every other facet of our increasingly circumscribed lives, but who then turn around and say that it’s okay to allow that same power-hungry Federal government to simulate the drowning of prisoners--at least the really evil ones, anyhow. What, they ask, could possibly go wrong with such a fine idea as government-sanctioned waterboarding? After all, we’re the good guys, the Exceptionalist Americans who are mysteriously immune to the flaws and temptations of the rest of humanity. Just ask anybody, man!
That is indeed torture.
Cave canem
*Saturno Devorando a su Hijo* http://eeweems.com/goya/saturn.html
*Viejos Comiendo Sopas* http://eeweems.com/goya/old_men_eating.html
Sadly, I'm reminded of Goya
Waterboarding dos not involve submerging the head underwater. Again, I ask, if waterboarding is indeed cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, why does the US Army routinely subject thousands of it's own troops to it?
Huh?
I gather that Mr. Batchelor knows his Oscar Wilde backwards and forwards, so he surely remembers the one about how doing something once makes it curiosity, twice perversion.
By the same token, waterboarding a recruit once or twice can be regarded as training, but to inflict simulated drowning on a prisoner day after day after day after day is reasonably held to be torture. (Ditto for sleep deprivation, loud noises, etc.) And Mr. Batchelor did say that KSM was "repeatedly" waterboarded. That word "repeatedly" is important.
What a dreary discussion this has been.
Good source on 'perversion'.
So, is WBing torture?
Note the editor's name:
http://tinyurl.com/q7ypto
Why don't you ask one of your other pseudonyms?
Prosit!
14 said it's not... if you don't have time to sweet talk and make nicey poo
1 said "no comment"
3 asked "does it matter?"
and
3 said they didn't know what any of us were talking about--> psuedonymbonics?
Anyway, I've been fairly comfortable with Spencer for, well, since he first showed up
Kenneth, apart from the fact that you're glossing over the application of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to non-U.S. citizens, who don't have the full protection of those legal documents, you're also implicitly comparing the victims of nationalized healthcare (i.e., all of use) to a few select, hardened terrorists who chose to be what they are. Come on .... I'm very strongly against police brutality in this country. I think the Rodney King beating was atrocious. I dislike police in general. I thought the BATF raid on Waco was appalling. But, I don't think Gitmo is like any of those other things that DO get me riled up. Gitmo is a series of legally sanctioned (at the time) actions, by a sovereign power with a very noble and focused purpose: that of tracking down this al-Qaeda scum and preventing another brutal, foul, vicious attack like 9/11. And they were successful! My hats off to them. Bush, Cheney and the whole chain of command right down to the actual guards helping with the waterboarding are AMERICAN HEROES for my money. It may be unpopular to say it, but who cares: Cheney is absolutely spot-on with his assessment of this whole waterboarding question - namely, when you sit in judgment of us, you must also bear in mind what might have happened had we not acted as we did.
Duly noted. Thanks.
How can I be said to have glossed over "the application of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to non-U.S. citizens"? I made no mention whatsoever of these things in my post.
I am troubled by the notion that we can give the Feds permission to torture people--even just the really bad ones--and not expect that they won't someday get around to using those same methods against Americans.
Look at what the RICO Act has turned into and you'll know what I mean. It was meant to give the Feds more power to fight mobsters but has since been used against groups as varied as strip club owners and anti-abortion activists, and has even been a tool in civil suits.
Kenneth:
I was referring to the sentence in which you pointed out that self-styled conservatives object to Federal government intrusion in areas such as healthcare, the economy, and education, but have no problem with torture. I'm answering that I only see a dichotomy here if one answers the question from the point of view that the rights guaranteed in the Constitution apply to aliens as well.